Would you emigrate?

[Lisa110]

New Zealand, South Island, tis beautiful. Or Canada. Big, easy to get away from people

Abroad because this country is overcrowded, full of yobs and **** miserable. That said, most other places I have heard of are going in that direction, (including NZ, slowly but surely I suspect).

If we stay in the UK, then we are reasonably happy with where we are as it is peaceful. But it still isn't isolated enough for our liking, and there is still local 'politics'. But nowhere is perfect.

We lived in Spain for a couple of years, it was great. I often wonder why we ever came back to this god awful island. People in most other ocuntries have a sense of how to enjoy life, in this country we specialise in being miserable and moaning about life, and it is contagious

Go for it. People in my line of work move around constantly, all over the world, and think nothing of trasnferring a whole family to a different continent for a couple of years or so before moving on again. When we moved from Sussex to Scotland, neighbours told us we were brave, and asked us what we would 'if it doesn't work out', well those thoughts weren't really in my head because I never consider anything as permanent. Give it a couple of yeasr and move on if needs be, there is a big wide world out ther,e you only get one shot at this life. You will awlays regret the things you don't do, you will never regret the things you do. Forget family and friends, it's your life not theirs. Your children will grow up to be more open-minded, tolerant and knowledgeable of the world, than if they stay in the same town for twenty years, this far outweighs any initial upheaval.

But remember, wherever you fetch up, it won;t be so idyllic once you're there, and don;t expect it to be. You still have to get up in the morning, get the kids out the door, do your day's work, battle with the plumber etc etc, pay your mortgage. Living in a beautiful place makes life a bit nicer, but it doesn't remove the need to run your life on a day to day basis with all its stresses.

Phew

Phew indeed that is a lot of thinking but worth it, you put it so beautifully, my version is "same **** different country"

Thanks Bernie, a lot to go on there ...

[Munk80]

Phew indeed , you put it so beautifully, my version is "same **** different country"

...

It's only the depth that varies!
Pity forum points can't be swapped into airpoints, you'd be halfway there by now on this thread!

[toppa]

Hello all, im in NZ as im typing this reply, the reception of the site is preddy good down here, although they have very slow broadband.
Havnt been on in a while so someone may have answerd this already but here goes.
Im from nz and over the years that i lived here was a big motor head, from landys through to american musle cars and hotrods built from scratch.
You ara not allowd to modify any vehicle whatsoever, even the smallest thing can fail a mot and cause insurence not to be piad (but its not law that you need insurence anyway)
No you can do what the hell you like to any vehicle here, there is just very strict regulations that have tobe followd. The land transport and the hotrod association with a heap of other people got togeather and came up with standards for every thing, from wheels to custom chassis, i have acopy of the codes somewhere, but beleave me they read like the instructions for a homebuild space shuttlle. All welding has to bo done by a qualified welder, and inspected during the build proccess. All mods have to inspected, then if they are safe they will issue a identity plate for the mods which is then riveted to the firewall with the vin plate.
They introduced the new rules, because by 16 you ca nhave a full license and be driving a 200mph jappa car, which all the chavs then started changing, i.e lowering by gas axing the springs, then killin themselves and passengers the first fast corner they tired.\The inspection isnt tha bad, if you do it right , they pass you, that simple.
Anyway some useless infor for you.
Cheers

[Murphree]

Hi Michelle,

I was waiting for the response.

It was said partrly tongue-in-cheek and partly with some venom, and bearing in mind what your blokes did to our blokes in last weeks Mandela Cup rugby match, it's probably rings a little truer. I really don't want to get into a political polemic on this forum, but suffice it to say that I have some issues with the nanny-state mentality of Australia, as well as the fact that I believe Australia to be a fundamentally racist country. The problem with Australian racism is that most Australians don't see or understand their own racism. South African emigration to Australia is symptomatic of that racism. (Apparently 27% of the population of Perth are ex-South Africans).

I have many friends, relations, and acquaintances who have emigrated to Australia from here, and what annoys me about most of them is that they have become anti South African since leaving. I get the sense that they have to compensate for a nagging feeling of guilt for running away by actively running down the country where they were born, schooled and educated. It really annoys me that my tax money paid to subsidise their birth, 12 years of school, helathcare, university degree etc. and they simply run off to Australia without putting anything back into the country, and then they bad-mouth South Africa. It may be that Australian society is very similar in many ways, to the way white South Africans used to live under apartheid.

It is my perception that South Africans who emmigrate to countries other than Australia do not actively bad-mouth South Africa, and many say that they'd like to return. I know of several people who emmigrated to NZ and the UK who would love to return but can't afford to.

If I were to live in Australia, it would definitely NOT be in Perth. (I'd end up becomming a serial killer of ex-South Africans ).

Just mt 2c worth... nothing personal Michelle... and anyone's welcome to agree or disagree with my views.

Regards,
Marc

BINGO

[Murphree]

I wonder if anyone on here who has kids in a British state school can say... my kids go to a great school? I would love to hear about it. My children went to a lovely junior school but the discipline is still terrible.

Pretty strange having an ex Zimbo now living in South Africa defending British education But my brother in law moved from Zim to Aberdeen and I think they are happy with the education their two children are recieving at a state school. The couple I mentioned in an earlier posting who are trying to return to the UK from NZ have sent their daughter back to Scotland because she is very bright and they felt the NZ system did not challenge her sufficiently.

[Lisa110]

Pretty strange having an ex Zimbo now living in South Africa defending British education But my brother in law moved from Zim to Aberdeen and I think they are happy with the education their two children are recieving at a state school. The couple I mentioned in an earlier posting who are trying to return to the UK from NZ have sent their daughter back to Scotland because she is very bright and they felt the NZ system did not challenge her sufficiently.

This is why it is such a big decsion when you have children.

My family that live in NZ say it was the best thing they ever did, but when they left UK they only had themselves to worry about, they did bring up 3 children in Auckland but there is no guarantees that the schooling would be any better for our children than where they are at the moment..

[Michelle]

I find this very interesting, and would love to see more (via PM if you prefer that way) on the subject.
WHen you refer to our being racist and not even knowing it...can you explain that a little further. IS it in reference to the appalling way indiginous Australians were treated upon western arrival and all the way up to the 1970's or so - or to some other behaviour. Or perhaps our now 'reverse racism' - where we must have certain university positions, government positions open to indiginous Australians only.
Aussies are a strange mixed breed.
One the one hand you have the open minded tolerant benign types who are welcoming of different cultures and upbringings. On the other hand you get the little redneck yankee wannabes - where anything different is unclean or wrong and needs to be persecuted.
We tend to have a very limited view of the world - in a country so large as ours it seems too much to be looking and learning outside of it. And our earlier generations didnt help in that department, we may have been taught lots at school about apartheid and the more gruesome aspects of US and SA history but you can bet your last penny we learned nothing until recent years, about how our officials took aboriginal children away from their families for 'civilising' and training to work in white peoples homes etc...
Complex but intriguing topic.

[Lisa110]

I find this very interesting, and would love to see more (via PM if you prefer that way) on the subject.
WHen you refer to our being racist and not even knowing it...can you explain that a little further. IS it in reference to the appalling way indiginous Australians were treated upon western arrival and all the way up to the 1970's or so - or to some other behaviour. Or perhaps our now 'reverse racism' - where we must have certain university positions, government positions open to indiginous Australians only.
Aussies are a strange mixed breed.
One the one hand you have the open minded tolerant benign types who are welcoming of different cultures and upbringings. On the other hand you get the little redneck yankee wannabes - where anything different is unclean or wrong and needs to be persecuted.
We tend to have a very limited view of the world - in a country so large as ours it seems too much to be looking and learning outside of it. And our earlier generations didnt help in that department, we may have been taught lots at school about apartheid and the more gruesome aspects of US and SA history but you can bet your last penny we learned nothing until recent years, about how our officials took aboriginal children away from their families for 'civilising' and training to work in white peoples homes etc...
Complex but intriguing topic.

I would be very interested to see the continuation of this topic also.

[Marc Lurie]

I would be very interested to see the continuation of this topic also.

I'm always happy to jump into a good fray

Here's the main problem with a discussion about racism: How do you start to determine what "race" is. One can glibly state that a persons race is clearly evident. "Denzel Washington is black, Brad Pitt is white." If I have negative feelings towards Denzel because he is black, then I am a racist. But what about Halle Berry. Is she black? Is she white? Does it really matter?

It's the same as ethnicity or nationality. What is an "African"? Is Nelson Mandela an African (he is clearly a black person, and was born in Africa)? Is Denzel Washington an African (he's clearly a black person who was not born in Africa)? Is Muamar Gadaffi an African (He's a very pale skinned person who was born in Africa)? If Gadaffi is an African, then am I an African (I have darker skin than Gadaffi, I'm second generation born in Africa, but of European descent)?


Michelle, of course we all should know about, and acknowledge, the disgusting immigration policies of the Aus government which were completely and unapologetically racist up until the early 1980's (Interestingly enough, Australia was a strong anti-apartheid voice at the time - perhaps it is easier to point out other people's problems than to acknowledge your own). These policies have resulted in a country of about 20 million people, the vast majority of whom have European origins and generally eurocentric customs and value systems. We should also know about the horrendous practices perpetrated against indiginous peoples of Australia. This is all historical, and lasted over 200 years.

The following paragraph comes from http://www.racismnoway.co.au

"Until recent years, racist policies and practices were also embedded within Australian laws and institutions. The most telling examples of these were the removal of Aboriginal children from their families and the denial of full citizenship rights to Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islander people. Similarly, the White Australia policy aimed to restrict immigration by people from non-European backgrounds. Historically, rises in unemployment have often led to calls for immigration restrictions and in some cases led to the scapegoating of people who were seen to be different to members of the dominant culture. While legislation now exists to protect the rights of all citizens, there is a continuing legacy today from the effects of these racist practices." (my italics).

One must always remember that the term "racism" doesn't only pertain to a form of hatred between black people and white people. There is a lot of hatred and mistrust of asians in Australia. The obvious manifestation of this hatred was the Aus govt. not allowing many Vietnamese and other refugees into the country, but it goes deeper. Most of the Australians I have spoken with have a deep-rooted mistrust and hatred for people of asian or indian descent. They would not classify themselves as "racist" because the term is quite unacceptable. They will however, consider themselves to be "realists" or "just facing facts" or the like. Their rationale for their mistrust is that "they're just like that" or "you just can't trust them" or "they're going to breed like rabbits and take over the country". A very good friend of mine is an Aussie living in the UK currently. She would never consider herself to be a racist. The thought of racism is repulsive to her. But the fact remains that she would never consider living next to an Aborigine (or whatever the PC term is today), because "they're always drunk and throwing noisy parties". She has told me that she finds oriental people unpleasant to look at, and couldn't possibly find one attractive. But she's not a racist? She doesn't understand that she has deep-rooted, ingrained racism that has spent the past 35 years drilling into her head. It's the fact that she can't see her own racism that makes it so insidious.

My conversations with South Africans who live in Australia explain why they like the country in the following terms: "It's a lot like South Africa, but without kaffirs". (I make no apologies for using the disgusting perjorative term in this context as I am quoting or paraphrasing what people have actually said to me.) South Africans have emigrated to cities like Perth in their droves. The number of black South Africans who have done so is negligable. In Perth, they congregate in the same suburbs, go to the same schools etc. In effect they create a small South African ghetto which mimics South Africa in almost every way, except that there are no black people there. If 27% of Perth is made up of these people, then at least 27% of Perth is racist.

I've just read over my post, and I'm shocked at how long it is - and I'm not even 1% through the subject... I wish we could sit down at a barbeque and discuss this verbally.

So I'll shut up for now...

Marc

I just found a few paragraphs from www.racismnoway.com.au that puts my views very clearly

"As Australian society has become more diverse with continuing immigration, expressions of racism in Australian popular culture have changed over time. Racist language and attitudes that were common at the end of the nineteenth century are no longer acceptable one hundred years later. However, racism continues to find expression in new ways, reinforced through the popular media.


Contemporary expressions of racism which have emerged in recent years relate to notions of nationhood which are seen as incompatible with diversity. These racist beliefs may be expressed in various stereotyped views of who the 'real' Australians are. This form of racism is based on an ideology of national culture in which minority cultures are regarded as alien and a threat to social cohesion. It consists of pervasive cultural assumptions where the customs and beliefs of the dominant group in society are presented as the norm. As a result, the status and behaviour of minority groups, particularly those who are more visibly different, are defined and judged with respect to the dominant group of largely British and Celtic backgrounds.

These attitudes are widely discussed in the media where they are presented as reasonable and commonsense and reflected through media images that do not accurately portray Australia's cultural diversity. In this way, racist ideologies are expressed and reinforced through a process of group interaction and thereby absorbed into popular culture.

Racist beliefs are also at the core of the resentment expressed by some people at measures taken by governments to address the disadvantages of particular groups of people. Affirmative measures and positive discrimination are frequently seen as the preferential treatment of one group at the expense of another rather than the means of redressing the disadvantage inherent in society. Examples include opposition to Aboriginal land rights, calls for the removal of special benefits for particular groups and resentment towards the provision of English language support to migrants. These beliefs are compounded by the notion that treating all people in the same way equates to equity and social justice when in fact not everyone begins life with the same opportunities.

This resentment often finds expression in the belief that 'reverse racism' is occurring. The notion of reverse racism is that people from the dominant culture are being discriminated against or not receiving the same benefits as people from minority groups. It needs to be understood that there is no such thing as reverse racism. At an individual level, all ethnic or cultural groups are capable of both discriminating against other groups and of being discriminated against, although minority groups are more likely to suffer from institutional racism.

Racism affects everyone. It damages communities by limiting the contributions of its members and disrupts peaceful co-existence and co-operation between groups. It damages individuals by destroying self-confidence and preventing them from achieving their potential. It is particularly damaging for children as it hampers social development and limits educational opportunities. The consequences of racism - social injustice, a less productive economy and a divided community - are clearly detrimental, not only for its victims but to society as a whole.

Racism is a destructive and persistent evil that brings only harm. Sadly it is often a misinformed response to economic hardship. Rather than solving economic problems, however, racism fuels the fire of suffering by intimidating its victims and corrupting its perpetrators. Racial prejudice is a corrosive influence attacking the most fundamental values of Australian society - our commitment to justice, egalitarianism and a 'fair go' for all."

[Spysmys]

I wish we could sit down at a barbeque and discuss this verbally.

Mornin Marc,

Ok, let's braai, bring your dop and chop......

I feel very strong about this subject as I am often accused of running away from South Africa. Those that accuse me don't understand that South Africa can not provide me with the opportunities to make a success of my career and provide security (£'s) for me and my family. They obviously don't know what it feels like to arrive at Heathrow with all your belongings fitting in two backpacks. I'm a true South African, I have African blood pumping in my veins.

I don't care about the fact that South Africa is populated by 85% black people. I just know that 100% of the people are to blame for the weak economy, black or white, brown or yellow. If the SA people can get over the racism issue and work together to illuminate the crime and hate then I will return to make it my home again. I will not put the lives of my family at risk because of crime that is a result of cultural differences.

Yes, I have emigrated and Yes, I will return someday ! I miss my family dearly, I miss the good times we had back home, but this is my home for now. This is where I have my braais (barbeque), this is where I watch my rugby, this is where I drive my Landy..............

Spys

[buzz]

I have nothing to add, I just saw that Spys had posted and wanted to see that avatar again!!!.....

[Spysmys]

I have nothing to add, I just saw that Spys had posted and wanted to see that avatar again!!!.....

[buzz]

I have nothing to add, I just saw that Spys had posted and wanted to see that avatar again!!!.....

I kid you not it mesmerises me,..... (End of hijack.... )

[Marc Lurie]

Gooie more Spys,

Mornin Marc,

Ok, let's braai, bring your dop and chop......
Your bloody customs guys won't let me bring some decent meat into the country...

I feel very strong about this subject as I am often accused of running away from South Africa.

Not by me!!! I fully understand why many people have left SA, and it is one of my great sadnesses in life that I know that SA sometimes can't offer someone like you the opportunities that other countries can. When you decide to come back, I'll be the first to welcome you and invite you for a braai. If however, my two ex-friends (now Aussie citizens) want to return here for good, they can F**k right off. I'm not one to harbour a grudge, but they've been unfairly running down the country of their birth, and I won't tolerate that. They're happy in Aus where they can be the racists that they no longer can be in SA.

When last were you here? Things have changed radically (for the better) over the past 3 or 4 years or so, particularly in the cities. In my opinion the future is looking really good. You mention the weak economy, but the Rand was the strongest performing currency in the world last year, interest levels are the lowest they've been in nearly 40 years, consumer confidence is up, business confidence is up, etc. The only really worrying issues here now are related to government policies. If Mbeki steps down (voluntarily, as he is required by law) after his term of office, if Zuma is NOT the next President, if "Zim style Land Grabs" are not started, etc. then we wil definitely be on the correct path upwards, and you'll be back here before you know it.

I am constantly impressed at how this country is getting on with the businesss of normalising. Of course, we've had 350 years of abnormallity, and only 10 years to try to mend all the problems. What I've seen in 10 years is nothing short of a miracle. To see kids of different colours simply "hanging out" together because they really are friends is fantastic. That 10 years ago you would have been severely at risk if you were a mixed race couple, and today hardly anybody blinks an eye is marvelous. And just the general feeling that we acknowledge that there are problems, but we're slowly becomming normal.

Marc

[Spysmys]

I'll take you up on that braai, just be careful, I'm 6'4, 110kg, and I can eat a whole beast !!!

We left Sa in 2001, I've been back every year to see the family, this is obviously not the same as living there. I must agree, the Rand has strengthened a lot. We arrived in the UK when it was R20 = £1, It's down to £11.77 today. That is fantastic for the country and it reflects in the property market. I have property back home which has value has increased by 150% in 4 years. I don't think another country can match that.

For your friends in Aussie land, have a shrimp on the barbie for them and write them off. I can't stand the Aus ******s, they've been rivals in every sport we compete, how the hell do you move to your enemy’s land ??? It's like giving up, like throwing the towel in. That will be the last thing that I do........


Cheers