Beer meeting Saturday

[K&S]

Anyone whose around come and join Marc, Bvudzichena and I for a drink and the Keg & Archer in Eco Park, Centurion on Saturday 13th January at about 16h00.

:beers:

[Marc Lurie]

Does your son run that Keg Kevin?

See you Saturday.

Marc

[timbott]

A bit too far even for me to go to drink beer:D Have fun:)

cheers, Tim

[K&S]

Does your son run that Keg Kevin?

See you Saturday.

Marc

He's got minor shares in it. He and two friends got it going from scratch. Been going 12 months now.

[K&S]

A bit too far even for me to go to drink beer:D Have fun:)

cheers, Tim

We'll have one (or maybe more) for you and then send you a pic of your beer.

:cheers:

[BigJim]

We'll have one (or maybe more) for you and then send you a pic of your beer.

:cheers:

That would be better than pics of sunshine:D :D :D :D :) :)

Where were you in Rhodie? I have good friends in Zim.

[K&S]

That would be better than pics of sunshine:D :D :D :D :) :)

Where were you in Rhodie? I have good friends in Zim.

You are never going to let me forget those sunshine pictures :D .

I was in Salisbury most of the time although my wife lived in just about every town in Rhodesia when she was still with her family before we got married. My surname is Moss and her maiden name was Bazley. Can safely post that because we don't owe any money there still, so nobody should be looking for us!:D

[Marc Lurie]

Can safely post that because we don't owe any money there still, so nobody should be looking for us!:D

Well, if you did owe any money, it wouldn't be too difficult to repay the loan now ;) . Now that it's severeal thousand $Z to the Rand :eek:

A friend of mine bought a house in Bulawayo 15 years ago, for less than he now pays for a case of cokes. :eek:

[K&S]

For the last five years my dad's Zimbabwe pension has not been paid here and has accumulated there. He asked me if he should give it away to someone there who might have need of it because he'll never get to use it as he's 87 and never going back. I worked it out and told him not to bother. After five years of monthly payments and interest it would buy exactly one loaf of bread there! I couldn't believe it and redid my calculations about three times, phoned my cousin and confirmed it; one loaf of bread!

[BigJim]

For the last five years my dad's Zimbabwe pension has not been paid here and has accumulated there. He asked me if he should give it away to someone there who might have need of it because he'll never get to use it as he's 87 and never going back. I worked it out and told him not to bother. After five years of monthly payments and interest it would buy exactly one loaf of bread there! I couldn't believe it and redid my calculations about three times, phoned my cousin and confirmed it; one loaf of bread!
Zim is a real sad story, what it is now compared to what it used to be.
Inflation is over 1000% now I believe.
I visirted Argentina many years ago when inflation was high, when people got paid they bought food for 2 weeks, then invested the other half of their salary in special 2 week bonds (with high interest rates) so they could afford food for the second half of the month, cos if they didn't do that they couldn't afford enough food. Life was difficult.

[K&S]

Now I'm going to have a quick and relativley quiet rant. Nearly every country in the world was against Rhodesia when everyone had food and work. Now that people starve and get gunned down (Matabeleland in the 1980s) no one gives a damn. Mugabe and his cronies - fabulously wealthy; local people - starving.

:soapbox:

[BigJim]

Now I'm going to have a quick and relativley quiet rant. Nearly every country in the world was against Rhodesia when everyone had food and work. Now that people starve and get gunned down (Matabeleland in the 1980s) no one gives a damn. Mugabe and his cronies - fabulously wealthy; local people - starving.

:soapbox:

Many countries were, some people who know the reality of life in 'Africa' were all for the way it was run.

There is a parallel now with people saying what is good for Iraq, when really what they are saying is what is best for them, (as politicians, generals etc) or what is best for their country.

[bvudzichena]

A friend of mine bought a house in Bulawayo 15 years ago, for less than he now pays for a case of cokes. :eek:

Marc,

In 1990 we bought 3000 acres of land from a guy called Buffenstein that included 8 automatic tobacco stokers and the town on Nyazura for Z$150,000 We immediately sold the 8 automatic stokers for more than we paid for the farm and and bought a Toyota Hilux 2.4D for Z$155,000

Things were skewed from the beginning of Esap.

In 1992, after I'd been in the UK for two years, I made a quick one week trip back home, stopped in Pretoria and picked up a 325iS, driove it up, cleared it under returning residents' rebate and parked it under some bedsheets in one of our tobacco bulking sheds.

At current exchange rates, we paid somethine like 6p for the farm.

A year later I returned to Zim for a my compulsary week there, sold the car for Z$465,000 and bought a 750 square meter house with a tennis court and swimming pool in Alexandra Park (Embassy Row) for Z$435,000

That's how I managed to buy my first house in Zim for R70,000

Kevin,

Don't get me started on Bob.

My guys up there are now all being paid in US$, but the scary thing is that it's inflation of over 1,000% in US$ terms - not just in Zim$ terms. At least here in SA, the exchange and inflation rates are proportional to each other, so if inflation goes up, it's also reflected in the exhange rates. There the rates move much slower than the inflation rate. Even though we sell the gas in US$, we adjust the price twice a day (7:30am and 1:30pm) to make up for inflation and exhange rate variances. That's the only way we are able to stay ahead of the wave up there.

[bvudzichena]

Many countries were, some people who know the reality of life in 'Africa' were all for the way it was run.

There is a parallel now with people saying what is good for Iraq, when really what they are saying is what is best for them, (as politicians, generals etc) or what is best for their country.

Let me tell you this straight.

The average Black man in Zimbabwe may not have been able to vote when Ian Smith was in power, but he had a roof over his head, he was able to feed and clothe his family and most importantly, his children received a good eduction.

Today the life expectancy for the average man in Zimbabwe is 37. I stand corrected on this next bit, but I was told that's the lowest in the world.

Where do you think all those successful Black Zimbabwan thirty and fourty somethings who are now in the UK came from? They didn't just appear out of thin air. Their fantastic education was the result of Smith's "racial segregation" policy that saw 4 million Black kids go to school for free up to A levels.

The new academic year in Zimbabwe starts this week. My staff who are paid in hard currency are emailing me asking me to lend them money to pay for school fees, uniforms, shoes, books and stationary. They are much better off than the average person sitting behind a till at Zimbabwe's version of Tesco. If my well off staff can't afford school feees, how are "normal" people with jobs who get paid in Zim$ going to get their kids in school?

[BigJim]

Let me tell you this straight.



Either I put it wrong, or you misunderstood me.:eek: :eek:

I was agreeing with you:) :)

I worked 18 yrs in international agriculture, and visited too many 'developing' countries.

[bvudzichena]

I was agreeing with you:) :)



I know you were and I wasn't having a go at you :)

But there are a number of other people reading this thread who may not agree with us, so one sometimes has to convince them of the reality of a situation ;)

[Marc Lurie]

The average Black man in Zimbabwe may not have been able to vote when Ian Smith was in power, but he had a roof over his head, he was able to feed and clothe his family and most importantly, his children received a good eduction.

That's a tired old chestnut that is pretty meaningless. Most people (due to the nature of people worldwide) feel the desire to be the masters of their own destiny. The adage that "It is better to be starving but free, than to be a well-fed slave" is completely pertinent.

Perceived freedom is one of the most powerful motivating forces on earth. You take away that freedom from a group of people, and you can NEVER sleep peacefully around them again.

Regardless of what happened to the opressed people in Zimbabwe after independance, they rightly, and justifiably fought to get rid of the Smith regime before independance.

[Marc Lurie]

Today the life expectancy for the average man in Zimbabwe is 37. I stand corrected on this next bit, but I was told that's the lowest in the world.

According to 2006 estimates, Zim has an average life expectancy of 37.82 which is higher than Lesotho (34.47), Botswana (33.87), and Swaziland (33.22). So it's not quite the worst in the world, but it's not looking good at all.

Interestingly, the highest average life expectancy in Africa is Libya (76.4). The UK is at 78.54

Of course, the main contributors to the lousy life expectancy in southern Africa is a deadly combination of AIDS, poverty, malnutrition, malaria, TB, and under-education (or mal-education is some cases).

[Alice]

My surname has been said to be Dutch/africarn, going back a few generations on my fathers side & they owned one of the large shipping company's locally (came from Plymouth before that) It makes me wonder where we most likely earned the money to do all that & chances are it would have been involved in the slave trade.
I'm a product of the 60's, grew up with mixed race friends. Parents fostered children who's parents worked in London, came from, Kenya, Uganda etc.
Reading all your posts shows such a different way of life to the one I knew as a child. It makes me wonder where those I knew are now. :(

[bvudzichena]

Regardless of what happened to the opressed people in Zimbabwe after independance, they rightly, and justifiably fought to get rid of the Smith regime before independance.


That is a dangerous statement for someone who doesn't know the entire story.

We need to remember one small technicality here.

I'm not one to look exact dates, times, percentages and ratios up on the internet, rather relying on my memories of situations I have been in or articles or books that may have read in the past.

As luck would have it, my grandfather was a Rhodesian Front MP who served in the Federation (pre UDI), Rhodesian, Zimbabwe-Rhodesian and Zimbabwean parliaments from 1962 until his death in 1984. I inherited his Hansards, cabinet notes and other bits and bobs that I've read over the years when I had the time.

Kevin, I lived through this piece of history as a schoolboy, but you were in the thick of it. I'd appreciate any corrections if I got any facts wrong.

After UDI, the UK tried to bring the "Rhodesian Rebels" into the Commonwealth fold. Talks were held on HMS Tiger and HMS Fearless. Smith told the UK to go to hell and the UK then bullied South Africa to put Ian Smith under pressure to make peace with the Nationalists during the mid to late 1970's.

Just by shutting our fuel supply down, Mr Vorster forced Mr Smith to hold a referendum. As a result, Rhodesia's white eligible voters went to the polls at the beginning of 1978. The question was something along the lines of "Should we hand over power to the Blacks" and the resounding answer that came back from the populus was "Yes". The people of Rhodesia had been involved in a bitter terrorist war for the past six years and despite adjusting to life under international sanctions, the added burdon of South African sanctions was just too much for the average Rhodie.

This resulted in a troika consisting of Smith and two "moderate" black leaders running the country, overseeing a new constituton and managing one man one vote elections. Mugabe and Nkomo refused to give up arms and come to the negotiating table. If memory serves me, Muzurewa was a Manica. Mugabe is a Sezuru and Nkomo was a Ndebele. The Sezuru and Manica are both members of the Shona "supertribe" so although I can understand Nkomo's reluctance at being ruled by a "rat eating Shona", I can only assume that Mugabe's ego didn't allow him to sit down and negitiate with one of his own tribesmen. Bishop Abel Muzurewa won said elections, Ian Smith moved out of State House, Muzurewa moved in, changed the name of the country to Zimbabwe-Rhodesia and the country was governed in accorgance with the new constition.

It wasn't the oppressed masses of Rhodesia who got rid of Ian Smith, it was the UK and South Africa.

Muzurewa immediately set about a serious military campaign to get rid of his two opponents - namely Joshua Nkomo and Robert Mugabe. At this point, Black Zimbabwe-Rhodesians joined the army in droves to go and fight Mugabe and Nkomo. They weren't conscripted - they voluntered.

What can we make of this? Even 30 years ago, they didn't want Mugabe as their leader and were willing to take up arms to ensure he didn't become the leader.

More people were killed during the Zimbabwe-Rhodesia period (i.e. 1978/9) than in the UDI period (i.e. 1965-1978).

Unfortunately, the UK would not accept Zimbabwe-Rhodesia as Bishop Muzurewa was not the UK's man. Mugabe was.

By this time, Mugabe had taken care of his political rivals in his party (i.e. Tongorara and Chitepo) and was already running the political wing his party as a dictatorship. But, the Rhodesian army had brought him to his knees, bombing the hell out of his bases in Mozambique and either killing or capturing the majority of his cadres.

Mugabe's party always had a political head and a military head. Chitepo was the policital head for many years. After he was bumped in 1975, the roll fell on Tongogara. After Tongogara rolled his j**p on a straight road in Mozambique a year or so later (j**ps aren't THAT bad...), Mugabe stepped into the vacuum, but China and North Korea soon lost all interest in supporting Mugabe as they didn't consider him a viable leader.
For the record, Moscow always supported Nkomo.
I need to go off on a side tack for a while. The military leader of the party has always been a guy called Rex Nongo. When Mugabe eventually came to power, Rex claimed the position of head of the armed forces. He then (very quietly) changed his name by deed poll to Solomon Mujuru and formed a company to supply the armed forces with consumables. i.e. Everything from ammunition to cans of baked beans to tyres for the Eland 90 armoured cars. Think for yourself how much money you can make selling bullets to an army when they are at war. At this point the Zimbabwe Army was helping Machel and Chisano fight a war in Mozambique. Nongo / Mujuru was eventually caught out, took early retirement and went off to enjoy his billions.

Mujuru has always been seen as a "king maker" within Mugabe's party. I believe that the day Mugabe steps down, Mujuru will rule Zimbabwe by proxy. He's been waiting his turn since the mid 60's and isn't going to give up now. His wife is the current vice president of Zimbabwe...
Back to the story;

The UK decided to take up Mugabe's cause and sent their people in to assist Mugabe. I'd love to know how he managed to convince them to help him, but I suspect he offered them trade incentives once he was in power. For example all the UK military equipment that was purchased shortly after independance.

The UK then messed with the gold price and put immense pressure on South Africa to stop supporting Muzurewa and sanction Zimbabwe-Rhodesia. It wasn't too difficult for White-Apartheid South Africa to put the screws on Muzurewa. This resulted in Mugabe (and his British "advisers") fighting Zimbabwe-Rhodesia to a point where Muzurewa had no choice other than to enter into negotiations with the UK, Mugabe and Nkomo.

We all know that the ensuing Lancaster House Constition was a joke. That Muzurewa was then deposed as ruler of Zimbabwe-Rhodesia, that Southern Rhodesia then again became a British colony, that "free and fair" (but rigged) elections were held under the supervision of the Brits who ensured that Mugabe won and Zimbabwe was born.

Had the UK kept their nose out of Zimbabwe-Rhodesia's internal affairs, things would have been different. The original constitution provided for the word "Rhodesia" to disappear from the name within a couple of years. It also ensured universal suffridge, but most importantly, the economy would have been run on capitalist principles...

[bvudzichena]

It makes me wonder where we most likely earned the money to do all that & chances are it would have been involved in the slave trade.



Don't feel bad, we all have dirty little secrets in the closet.

In my case, my ancestor who came to South Africa in 1672 was one of the Here Sewentien i.e. one of the owners of the Dutch East India company.

Slavery, drugs, prostition. They were a really nice bunch...

[bvudzichena]

Perceived freedom is one of the most powerful motivating forces on earth. You take away that freedom from a group of people, and you can NEVER sleep peacefully around them again.



If we were to apply this comment to Post Apartheid South Africa, then surely none of us can sleep peacefully ever again...

[Marc Lurie]

My surname has been said to be Dutch/africarn

What is your surname Alice? The origin of names has always been a bit of a hobby of mine.

My own surname, "Lurie" is an ancient name, easily traceable to the 11th century sage, Rashi, and ultimately traceable back to King David from 10th century BC. According to Guinness World Records, the Lurie family is traceable further back than any other family (albeit with a different name).

So, I'm a member of the oldest continuously traceable family tree :) . The name "Lurie" itself is Italian.

My mum's maiden name was Spilkin which is Russian for a needle. It's the name adopted by the family when they emmigrated from Latvia in the 19th century, probably because one of the men was a tailor or something. (There are no existing records from before they arrived in South Africa)

Marc (Which is the name of a particularly strong distilled spirit made in France from the skins and pulp of the grapes left over from winemaking)


BTW, the origin of "Alice" is German, and it refers to Truth and Nobility.

Alice has many variant forms: Adelice, Adelisa, Ailie, Aillie, Allis, Ala, Alais, Alaisa, Aleceea, Alecia, Aleece, Aleetheea, Aleethia, Ali, Alica, Alicah, Alicea, Alicen, Alicia, Alidée, Alie, Alika, Alikah, Aliki, Alis, Alisa, Alisah, Alisan, Alisann, Alisanne, Alise, Alisha, Alison, Alissa, Alisz, Alitheea, Alitia, Aliz, Alla, Allecia, Alleece, Alleece, Alleeceea, Alles, Alless, Allie, Allice, Allecia, Alleece, Alleeceea, Alles, Alless, Alli, Allice, Allicea, Allie, Allis, Allison, Alliss, Allissa, Allisun, Allisunne, Allsun, Ally, Allyce, Allyceea, Allys, Allyse, Allysia, Allysiah, Allyson, Allyssa, Allysson, Alyce, Alyceea, Alys, Alysa, Alyse, Alysia, Alyson, Alyss, Alyssa, Elissa, Elke, Elli, Ellie, Ellissa, Ellsa, Elsa, Illyssa, Ilysa, Ilysah, Ilyssa, Ilysse, Leece, Leese, Licha, Lichah, Lissa, Lyssa etc.

[Marc Lurie]

We need to remember one small technicality here.
I don't want to get into a political polemic over this subject because there isn't enough bandwidth in the world to cope with the postings that will result. :D

I was talking in general terms. Of course, in any political dispensation nothing is clear-cut and simple. For those who are intimately involved it is often difficult to see things the way that others see the situation. The specific ins-and-outs of political intrigue are not important to my general point.

In the fullness of time (and remember, history is written by the victor) the regimes of Smith in Zimbabwe and apartheid South Africa will be reviled by mankind, in the same way (perhaps not to the same level) that the regimes of Hitler, Pinochet, Cioucesku etc. will be viewed.

The concept of removal of perceived freedom from a group of people is an interesting point, which we can discuss over the beer that prompted this thread.

[K&S]

The concept of removal of perceived freedom from a group of people is an interesting point, which we can discuss over the beer that prompted this thread.

I was getting worried the beers might only come after the gloves came off :D :D :D .

[K&S]

It wasn't the oppressed masses of Rhodesia who got rid of Ian Smith, it was the UK and South Africa.

Muzurewa immediately set about a serious military campaign to get rid of his two opponents - namely Joshua Nkomo and Robert Mugabe. At this point, Black Zimbabwe-Rhodesians joined the army in droves to go and fight Mugabe and Nkomo. They weren't conscripted - they voluntered.



I agree with your facts. The indented bit I don't know about as it was after I left.

As far as I remember the Rhodesian Armed Forces always consisted of Blacks in the majority and Whites in the minority. I know that the BSAP Support Unit was definitely mostly Blacks.