Ogwen A5 Lane - WARNING!!

[Geobloke]

Ok, not such good news am affraid, it appears that someone has dug a HUGE hole in the lane. I was told last week of this and have now been down to said lane (it runs parallel to the A5 down the Ogwen Valley, See map) and have seen the damage for myself.

The rumour doing the rounds is that the hole has been excavated by either/or/both the landowner/farmer and campsite owner just west of the hole. The reason people are saying is that the campsite owner is annoyed that 4x4s are driving through his campsite and instead of continuing down the greenlane (which is impossible) they are driving out on to the A5 via the campsites entranceway. See Pictures. Not sure whether this is the case or not but more than a couple of people have given me very similar stories. The hole has been dug quite purposely between a load of boulders on the south side and a fenceline on the north so a different route is out of the question.

WARNING: This is a very very deep hole, +5 foot depth of very soft peat bog. :eek:
(Location marked on map with a cross)

I tried to test the depth and my wading stick (+5ft) was too short so for the time being consider the hole "bottomless".

Unfortunately the guy who told me about the hole ended up in it thinking it wasn't that deep (:rolleyes: ), in trying to get his 90 out he destroyed his 12000lb electric winch. Moral of the story is?

This hole has been dug through the old roman road surface and down in to the peat bog below, the fill has been spread all around the hole. Unfortunately the hole was dug too long ago to discern any "cut marks" but it is a very regular shape, too much so for just vehicle damage IMHO.

Apart from the obvious destruction of a green lane it is also the destruction of a piece of the UKs heritage, as such is a real shame and completely unforgivable, not to mention criminal! What on earth is going on in peoples heads whereby they think creating a vehicle trap is a good idea? This bloke who got stuck had to climb out of the window as his truck was sinking in to the peat bog, he reckons it would have kept on sinking if it hadn't been tethered to a large boulder by the winch! :eek:

So Be Warned!

Am not entirely sure who to inform about this, anyone have any suggestions?

[DavejDavies]

Its in this months LRO as Greenlane of the month - in their write up they got stuck, probably not the same hole but the lane didn't seem passable...

If its a legal byway don't the council have a duty to repair - is it Conwy there or Gwyneed - close to the border...

[DavejDavies]

LRO Stuck...

[Geobloke]

Its in this months LRO as Greenlane of the month - in their write up they got stuck, probably not the same hole but the lane didn't seem passable...

If its a legal byway don't the council have a duty to repair - is it Conwy there or Gwyneed - close to the border...

Is that march's edition cos I canna find it in January or febuarys editions!

Not sure which county it is in at the moment!

[Geobloke]

LRO Stuck...

Hmmm yes thats the hole! :(

[DavejDavies]

Seems to be in Conwy

http://www.conwy.gov.uk/section.asp?cat=1355

highwaymaintenance@conwy.gov.uk

Do you have a grid reference?

[Geobloke]

Have just been talking to JJ who went with Antshybrid down that lane back in august and it certainly appears from the pics to be alot shallower but still quite deep.

Ok so the hole has been there for some time then and quickly getting deeper either by 4x4s or by excavation! Either way it is still not something I would expect to see spread over the pages of a major magazine, esspecially as the anti-4x4 campaign is at the moment! Incredibly irresponcible of them and really adds fuel to the antis pire! :(

[Geobloke]

Seems to be in Conwy

http://www.conwy.gov.uk/section.asp?cat=1355

highwaymaintenance@conwy.gov.uk

Do you have a grid reference?

Pretty much 601,690 by the looks of the map I just posted!

[DavejDavies]

not something I would expect to see spread over the pages of a major magazine, esspecially as the anti-4x4 campaign is at the moment! Incredibly irresponcible of them and really adds fuel to the antis pire! :(

Agreed - had a little rant of my own in the post below - I've scanned the pages, let me know if you want them mailed - can't read them resized to post on here...

[DavejDavies]

What on earth is going on in peoples heads whereby they think creating a vehicle trap is a good idea?

In the LRO article the guy got stuck and had to pay a farmer £30 for a tow :(

Nice little soucre of income or am I being too cynical?

[Geobloke]

In the LRO article the guy got stuck and had to pay a farmer £30 for a tow :(

Nice little soucre of income or am I being too cynical?

£30 by eck he got off lightly! :eek:


This lane desperately needs repairing! I feel a lane repair taskforce should be organised now!

[despot69]

By the placement of the tree's it looks like the same hole? and the most green laners would just expect it to be a negotiable hole as the tracks are at both ends - no wonder people get stuck?

It certianly needs some attention as if the sides erode it will end up being a real nightmare.

IT does look natural but then again I haven't been on that patch in two years and my memory is pants at the best of the time - perhaps if anyone else remembers that far back?

[Paul Humphreys]

I have posted a link to this on the CRAG forum.

Paul

[ROB 110 HICAP]

You need to get in touch with the rights of way officer for the county. They may be aware of it already and are not bothered/resourced to do anything about it. Rebuilding rights of way is a low council funding prioirity.

If it is like Powys, they will TRO it for 6months, then 'assess damge/environmental impact', put a huge repair figure against it, and continue the TRO indefinitely.

Sometimes they can enforce the landowner to repair damage/fencing/obstructions, and if they don't after sufficient time/warning, carry out the work themselves and bill the land owner. But that is normally when the landowner has deliberatly done something....difficult to prove.

It looks to me like the place is boggy anyway and water has collected in conjunction with lots of vehicles, deepening the hole in the peat. There doesn't appear to be a spoil heap around there from an excavator.

The water/mud is only coming up to the xmember in the photo, so not hugely deep, just nothing solid underneath for traction. I reckon if the local farmer was wanting to stop people using it, he wouldn't have pulled them out for £30, rather leaving them to struggle and abandon the vehicle, until more help could be found. Once word gets round that you will be stuck there for days until a local contractor can be paid to do it for loads more than £30.

A few years ago on the TRO'd 'Monks Trod' 2 4x4s were left there for a few weeks until a hefty fee was paid to the farmer for extraction, some people have said hundreds, someone else a grand for both vehicles. Then the council prosecuted the 4x4 owners!

[Paul Humphreys]

Has anyone got an email address for the ROW office? I am going to email them, but on memory map it shows as a RUPP but on the latest map I have theres an under lying white meaning a UCR. Depending on what it is, then its who dose the work.

Paul

[Madoobri]

Has anyone got an email address for the ROW office?

Just Googled this (http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?doc=14000)

[Geobloke]

Ah the little snippit of info I forgot to write last night was that the other part of the rumour was that the campsite owner had dug the hole to make the lane impassable so the council would TRO the lane! Only a rumour but thats what I have been told!

I think Dave found it was Conwy Council territory. Which is a good thing cos Gwynedd council is pants and their RoW officer doesn't like communicating with people, in fact it took 2 weeks to track a RoW officer down and even then he didn't sound convinced that he was responcible for RoWs! :rolleyes:

[Paul Humphreys]

I have sent an email to highwaymaintenance@conwy.gov.uk, highways@conwy.gov.uk, elwyn1.williams@conwy.gov.uk, thomas.hopkins@conwy.gov.uk , stephen.daly@conwy.gov.uk, robert.harris@conwy.gov.uk just need to see what comes back!!

Paul

[Newsreader]

Taking this information (which looks well informed to me) into account ...
It looks to me like the place is boggy anyway and water has collected in conjunction with lots of vehicles, deepening the hole in the peat. There doesn't appear to be a spoil heap around there from an excavator.
...can we be a bit less-tongued with the rumours please? :(
Only a rumour but thats what I have been told!

[Paul Humphreys]

Got this back so far

"Dear Sir,

Confirming receipt of your message, which has been forwarded to the Rights of Way unit for attention.

Regards,"

Will let you all know if I get anymore.

Paul

[Lighting90]

It makes interesting reading this thread, have to say, with my knowlegde of peat land, it is very conceivable that this hole has occurred naturally with the help of vehicles getting stuck. If the Local Authority is forced to do something about it, then expect the lane to be closed, and never be reopened, as peat roads are very difficult to repair. (Look at the lengths Mr Brunell went to on the London to Bristol line of the GWR, basically the tracks are on a timber raft, even to this day, as pouring stone made no difference to create a solid bed.)

So even organising a repair party, you need to source someone who has good engineering knowledge to be able to repair the road properly, rather than making a rush with stone. Oh and added to this, you now need a permit to actually carry out road repairs using hardcore. It is no longer a simple quick and easy fix these days.

With regard to rumours, these are always very dangerous to repeat, as you have no way of knowing whether they are true or not, and whether they have been started as a way of getting back at someone. Best not to repeat rumours like those stated in the thread so far, as it might get you into deep water.. :p and you need a tow out from said same person or persons....

[Geobloke]

Taking this information (which looks well informed to me) into account ...

...can we be a bit less-tongued with the rumours please? :(

Sure! However, my primary aim was to inform my friends and users of this forum that this lane contains a vehicle swallowing pit! I know this is just a rumour at this stage and that is why i stated it as such! Prehaps I could have of written this thread in a different less pointed manner, maybe that would have been preferable and possibly "less-tongued" but I didn't because I am concerned that the rumour may just be more than just a rumour!

In the future I will be more careful!

[ROB 110 HICAP]

Indeed 'rumour check' tool is enabled! I reckon its natural erosion, personally.

[Geobloke]

It makes interesting reading this thread, have to say, with my knowlegde of peat land, it is very conceivable that this hole has occurred naturally with the help of vehicles getting stuck. If the Local Authority is forced to do something about it, then expect the lane to be closed, and never be reopened, as peat roads are very difficult to repair. (Look at the lengths Mr Brunell went to on the London to Bristol line of the GWR, basically the tracks are on a timber raft, even to this day, as pouring stone made no difference to create a solid bed.)

This is so true, peat is a very unpredictable sediment and as you say extremely difficult to build on. This particular road is (as I have said before) Roman in age and IIRC they used substantial reed mats to spread the load and create some amount of floatation for the hardcore surface they spread on top of it, see picture, this is the original Roman surface to the road.

So even organising a repair party, you need to source someone who has good engineering knowledge to be able to repair the road properly, rather than making a rush with stone. Oh and added to this, you now need a permit to actually carry out road repairs using hardcore. It is no longer a simple quick and easy fix these days.

Hmmm this is true, but there are loads of engineers out there who could help. If it was up to me I wouldn't just dump hardcore in to the hole and be done with it. I'd attempt to repair it using some sort of floating raft (like the romans), probably not reeds but strung logs or something, then anchor them. Or something like that! I am no engineer (although I do have some geotechnical background) but thats where I would start if it was my project!

Why do you need a permit to lay hardcore?

With regard to rumours, these are always very dangerous to repeat, as you have no way of knowing whether they are true or not, and whether they have been started as a way of getting back at someone. Best not to repeat rumours like those stated in the thread so far, as it might get you into deep water.. :p and you need a tow out from said same person or persons....

Yes I know rumours are dangerous and if Admin so wish I will Edit my original post to their satisfaction!

[ROB 110 HICAP]

Blimey Geo that hole is deep, I can now only see your red whip aerial!

[Geobloke]

Blimey Geo that hole is deep, I can now only see your red whip aerial!

Lol nah not mine fella, if it were it'd be pink!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ROB 110 HICAP]

Lol nah not mine fella, if it were it'd be pink!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
With a Tesco's carpark ticket attached?

[Paul Humphreys]

Here is another hole I found at the weekend.
The only thing is the road was rebuilt 3 months ago by the FC. I had driven it a few weeks ago and no hole. It was another man made hole.

Paul

[Newsreader]

Here is another hole I found at the weekend.
The only thing is the road was rebuilt 3 months ago by the FC. I had driven it a few weeks ago and no hole. It was another man made hole.

Paul
By 'man-made' do you mean someone dug it out deliberately? How do you know that? Do you know how much use the road gets? I live in the middle of an FC forest and you might be surprised at the amount of heavy traffic and the speed with which damage occurs. Harvesters, forwarders, skyliners, low loaders, tipper trucks, 44-tonne artics ... Holes are constnatly opening up and having to be reapired at short notice.

[Paul Humphreys]

By 'man-made' do you mean someone dug it out deliberately? How do you know that? Do you know how much use the road gets? I live in the middle of an FC forest and you might be surprised at the amount of heavy traffic and the speed with which damage occurs. Harvesters, forwarders, skyliners, low loaders, tipper trucks, 44-tonne artics ... Holes are constnatly opening up and having to be reapired at short notice.

Yes I know it was manmade as where I was standing to take the second pic, on top of the bank, was the spoil out of the hole was under of my feet. Just about the swing of a JCB arm. Another piont is the hole was 3x3x3 feet. I run 235x85x16 (33inches) and it did not hit the bottom. The FC had been working up there about 4 amoths ago and when they finished the relayed the road to a very good standard. But at this point it was still the old road, untouched even when driving their machines up and down.

Paul

PS this what I got back from the FC

Thank you for your information regarding the UCR .

This is a PCC liability and not the F C but we can help by providing some stone to repair the road. I will give the LLanfyllin office a call informing them of this hole

Once again thank you for the information

Ieuan

[Paul Humphreys]

Got this back on the big hole.

Dear Sir,

I refer to your e-mail regarding the above.

I confirm that the Right of Way from Llyn Ogwen to Capel Curig is a RUPP number 4, Capel Curig which has vehicular right of way.

The matter regarding the hole will be investigated, and should you wish to discuss the matter any further, then please contact Dave Jones at the Llanrwst Highways Office - Tel 01492 640365.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Regards

Elwyn Williams
Peiriannydd Rhanbarthol/Divisional Engineer
Adran Priffyrdd/Highways Department
Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol CONWY County Borough Council

[Lighting90]

This is so true, peat is a very unpredictable sediment and as you say extremely difficult to build on. This particular road is (as I have said before) Roman in age and IIRC they used substantial reed mats to spread the load and create some amount of floatation for the hardcore surface they spread on top of it, see picture, this is the original Roman surface to the road.

Yes, the Romans knew how to build roads over anything, you have to admire them for that. Like all things though, these roads have been badly maintained, with the result of any damage been repaired in a bad way, even by the councils... i.e. oh dump a load of stone. This I understand makes the hole situation come back ten times worse than before they filled it.


Hmmm this is true, but there are loads of engineers out there who could help. If it was up to me I wouldn't just dump hardcore in to the hole and be done with it. I'd attempt to repair it using some sort of floating raft (like the romans), probably not reeds but strung logs or something, then anchor them. Or something like that! I am no engineer (although I do have some geotechnical background) but thats where I would start if it was my project!

The strung logs sound like a good plan, and having this information shows to everyone that as 4x4 users, we are not looking for a quick repair, but a more long lasting fix, which can only help in our fight against the anti's.

Why do you need a permit to lay hardcore?

Not sure why you need it, I assume it is to prevent any old rubbish been dumpped in to a greenlane etc. If anyone has more info, shout, as I have only been told this by my father, as they have been told that they need to apply for a permit to allow them to maintain their own tracks on their farm. It may only relate to farmers, but it shows that another peice of legislation has been brought in to help discourage farmers from doing repairs.


Yes I know rumours are dangerous and if Admin so wish I will Edit my original post to their satisfaction!
That is up to you , as your an adult and know what your doing and thus know the consequences, both positive and negative... :)

[Lighting90]

Paul, I don't think Bernie was disputing the fact you beleive that the hole was created on purpose, just that without evidence to prove it, making statements that it was done on purpose might not be so good for the image of 4x4 users.

It is better to assume that it has been caused by some natural means, and take the action you have taken by informing the local authority about it and offering where possible to repair the damage.

This way, we as a group do not come across in the same way as anti's, and blaming anyone and everyone for problems we encounter. (not easy I know)
If it is something that re occurs again after repairing the hole, then it might be worth speaking with Police and local authority, and keeping an log of the work done etc. They will start to take notice, and maybe done something about sorting the problem. But we have to becareful that we do not fall into the same mindset as the anti's with the general public, and that of us just moaning about everyone and everything because we can't get what we want... if you know what I mean...

[Paul Humphreys]

Paul, I don't think Bernie was disputing the fact you beleive that the hole was created on purpose, just that without evidence to prove it, making statements that it was done on purpose might not be so good for the image of 4x4 users.

It is better to assume that it has been caused by some natural means, and take the action you have taken by informing the local authority about it and offering where possible to repair the damage.

This way, we as a group do not come across in the same way as anti's, and blaming anyone and everyone for problems we encounter. (not easy I know)
If it is something that re occurs again after repairing the hole, then it might be worth speaking with Police and local authority, and keeping an log of the work done etc. They will start to take notice, and maybe done something about sorting the problem. But we have to becareful that we do not fall into the same mindset as the anti's with the general public, and that of us just moaning about everyone and everything because we can't get what we want... if you know what I mean...

The only reason I said it was manmade was because of the way it had been made and that the fact the waste out of the hole was on top of the bank. I know Bernie was not disputing it but I can only say it as I see it. I drive that was quite a bit as its a good to get to other places. So I keep an eye on whats happening around there, thats why I drove into it, normaley I would have check how deep it was. Its just a good job I was going slow. Its not to bad for 4x4 users but what if it was someone on a horse or bike?? A hole that deep is a hazard to anyone using it. I will go up there in a few weeks to see if it has been filled.

Paul

[DavejDavies]

Not sure why you need it, I assume it is to prevent any old rubbish been dumpped in to a greenlane etc. If anyone has more info, shout, as I have only been told this by my father, as they have been told that they need to apply for a permit to allow them to maintain their own tracks on their farm. It may only relate to farmers, but it shows that another peice of legislation has been brought in to help discourage farmers from doing repairs.


Not aware of any legislation requiring permits to use hardcore, perhaps it is just Scottish rules which will reach the rest of us in time? :( Could be EA regs which do require permits/registeration for all types of "landfill" even when inert and when being used to build roads etc. :rolleyes:

Many farmers around here would be clad of a skip load of clean brick rubble, many farm tracks couldn't be built without

If you were planning to carryout even volantary repairs to a public Highway I can imagine permits would be required, along with public liability insurance, H&S plans, method statements etc

It will be interesting to see how this is treated by Conwy, as a rate payer in Conwy County I am please to see the inital prompt reply detailing the officer in the Llanrwst depot, very close to the hole. Whether he is aware of the lanes construction remains to be seen. If he knows the area the logs solution seems a common sense approach but funds could be limited, the local papers have been full of big cuts to the budget in the coming year.

Been reading what has been done on the Sarn Helen by CRAG "all materials and Plant are provided by the Local Authority" - seems to good solution if money is tight as labour costs are usually 2/3 of any construction project...

Who's for joining Geo's chain gang? Form a que behind the red camper van :D :D

[Mogwyth]

Not aware of any legislation requiring permits to use hardcore, perhaps it is just Scottish rules which will reach the rest of us in time? :( Could be EA regs which do require permits/registeration for all types of "landfill" even when inert and when being used to build roads etc. :rolleyes:



Who's for joining Geo's chain gang? Form a que behind the red camper van :D :D
AFAIK you can't use any sort of waste (ie demolition rubble etc) for this sort of thing without a permit.

Quite happy to join the queue, quite used to filling holes in on our own lane though not quite as deep as that one.:D

[series 3]

i was on the laning trip with anthybrid and jj
that hole HAS NOT been dug out since we where there in august last year (nor had it been dug out previous to our visit), i have some pics (dont know how to post) of that hole whilst not quite as bad would not have taken much traffic to get to that state over winter

[Paul Humphreys]

The thing is now with the hole, however it was made/formed, is to get it fixed. I will give Dave Jones a call tomorrow to see if volunteers can be used for the work. Some councils will not use them. I am a Powys CC trained volunteer as such we are covered covered by their insurance and H&S.

If I can get something sorted who is going to help????

Paul

[DavejDavies]

AFAIK you can't use any sort of waste (ie demolition rubble etc) for this sort of thing without a permit.


What sort of permit? From whom? :rolleyes:

Repairs to a public highway would no doubt required DOT type 1 stone or similar but for repairing or making your own private track who is to know or care if its clean and inert?

The only legislation which could possibly apply is EA waste management. Once its gone through a crush demo masonry is very good for tracks etc - saves landfill space and digging out new stuff, helps save the planet :D :D

Lot of the DOT: 1 stone I am using these days (building sites) is slate waste, used several thousand tonnes last year and I am not aware of any permits?

Slate waste on terram or geogrid is quite good on the soft stuff and Penrhyn quarry is only 5 miles down the road... if Conwy don't come through they might be willing to provide some FOC for the good PR?

The thing is now with the hole, however it was made/formed, is to get it fixed. I will give Dave Jones a call tomorrow to see if volunteers can be used for the work. Some councils will not use them. I am a Powys CC trained volunteer as such we are covered covered by their insurance and H&S.

If I can get something sorted who is going to help????

Paul

Count me in, sounds like fun :D

You going to suggest logs or sleepers as the foundation to to Dave Jones?

Conwy do make use of volunteers, my wife is a volunteer footpath warden and insured by Conwy to use pruning tools :eek:

Could come in handy on an overgrown lane :D :D

[Mogwyth]

Hi Dave

I understood that all demolition residue is classed at waste, nowadays, and that you could not just use it for infill even for tracks, however I am not an expert, got out of the building trade long before all these new waste management rules came out.

Whatever is used I am up to help.

[DavejDavies]

got out of the building trade long before all these new waste management rules came out.


Don't blame you, its all paperwork these days - nightmare :rolleyes:


Whatever is used I am up to help.

That's what really matters, I am sure anyone who has done this type of group scheme before would have enjoyed it :) :)

[jjsaul]

Assuming we're free i'd be willing to come and help with that lane - as has been mentioned i drove it with antshybrid and strangerover last august.

There was a hole then (we got a bit stuck) but nothing like as deep as it is now.

[Lighting90]

Not aware of any legislation requiring permits to use hardcore, perhaps it is just Scottish rules which will reach the rest of us in time? :( Could be EA regs which do require permits/registeration for all types of "landfill" even when inert and when being used to build roads etc.

No, my father is based in England, and the legislation is new, he doesn't have the full details as yet as they are waiting for the paperwork explaining what can and can't be used, so it sounds like an extension to the waste regs.

Who's for joining Geo's chain gang? Form a que behind the red camper van :D :D

Are you going to all have orange boiler suits, with hand drawn arrows on them...:D :D

I hope you can get this organised and get the hole sorted out, as it is good publicity for the 4x4 movement to show the anti's that problems are sorted.

[series 3]

count me in (work permitting ) have a couple of trailers so could transport sleepers etc up there
Dafydd

[Paul Humphreys]

I am waiting for Dave Jones at the Llanrwst Highways Office to get back to me as he was not in the office when I called.

Thanks for the offer Dafydd I will let you know when/if we can help to do the work. It will be more than likley at a weekend.

Paul

[Hoodoo]

If I'm free, I'll wander up too.
Regards,

[Strange Rover]

Seeing as I have driven this lane once I too would be willing to help out repair it.... When we drove it the camp site owner seemed very polite and helpfull and had commented on the deep hole forming, seems it was started when the council used the lane to access a repair elsewere, when the left their heavy machinery had started a hole, we were stuck on it for a while.... so given a few months and use I can easy see how it got like that by itself.....

[Geobloke]

Ok seems like we're getting a work party organised! If we are going to be shifting log and sleepers I would say the more the merrier! Bring your wives, children, girlies, ect. always room for a tea lady (JJ if he comes!!!).

We could do with someone to donate some felled good sized logs and or sleepers! Sleepers are ace cos they are pressure treated and will last longer!

Anyone interested in doing a recce this saturday to work out what needs doing? and whether it is possible, fesible or whatever!

[DavejDavies]

We could do with someone to donate some felled good sized logs and or sleepers! Sleepers are ace cos they are pressure treated and will last longer!



Wonder if the foresty commission would donate? Plenty of choice in the Gwydir forest and they have an area office in Llanrwst - could pick our own if they are willing and anyones got a chainsaw :D


Anyone interested in doing a recce this saturday to work out what needs doing? and whether it is possible, fesible or whatever!

Was thinking of taking a look Sunday, got to work Saturday morning :( then there is a little rugby game Saturday afternoon :D

Remember getting some notes on Roman road building when in college years ago - sure there was something about logs, I will have to take a look...

[DavejDavies]

Found a link to The Construction & Makeup of Ancient Roman Roads http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/transport/Adam_Pawluk/Contruction_and_Makeup_of_.htm#Construction

on the Glass web site http://www.glass-uk.org/pub-library/index_construct.html#Historic

Dug out my copy of Roadwork Theory & Practice - 300 pages but not of much use for this job :(

In the absence of an engineer to advise logs would seem to be the way to go with geotextile & stone layers above. Tensar Geogrid SS40 is a spec engineers have given me for estate roads on soft ground. Guess the repaired section would need to be built up to allow for some future settlement?

[DavejDavies]

No, my father is based in England, and the legislation is new, he doesn't have the full details as yet as they are waiting for the paperwork explaining what can and can't be used, so it sounds like an extension to the waste regs.


At the risk of going slight off topic, following a bit of reseach I understand that currently the use of clean inert hardcore is exempt from the waste regulations if it is the only economically viable way of carrying out certain works, such as the construction of farm tracks. This exemption appears to have been abused by some with the introduction of non exempt materials and creating works just as dodges to landfill so the EA are changing the system.

Whilst still being exempt the use of hardcore will now be notifiable and there will be a fee of £500 :( . Gives the EA the chance to inspect and closes any loop-holes.

You would hope common sense would dictate that the minor patching of existing tracks would not require notification however if its more than a pothole it might be prudent to contact your local EA office for their determination - if you are up front with them I have found the EA are usually very helpful. The fines that will be handed out are likley to be sizable...

Use of materials purchased as fill such as MOT1 etc is still OK

[Paul Humphreys]

Hi All,

Just to let you all know I have not had a call back from Dave Jones so I have sent an email.

I will let you all know when/if I get an answer.

Paul

[DavejDavies]

Was thinking of taking a look Sunday, got to work Saturday morning :( then there is a little rugby game Saturday afternoon :D


In the absence of an engineer I could probably get hold of some basic surveying equipment for Sunday - I could take some levels and knock up a drawing in AutoCAD - my staff is only 4m long - hope the hole isn't too deep :D

[Paul Humphreys]

I am ment to have been doing a RTV trail sunday, but I change that. I will let you know. I would like to wait and seeif I get an email back first.

Paul

[Geobloke]

Am affraid I cannot do anything this sunday I am training all day! :rolleyes: But a fresh set of eyes to look at the scene would be a good idea!

As for the little rugby game! Five Live fella! ;)

[DavejDavies]

Am affraid I cannot do anything this sunday I am training all day! :rolleyes: But a fresh set of eyes to look at the scene would be a good idea!

As for the little rugby game! Five Live fella! ;)

Ok - I could be flexible and do Sat PM but not till around 2ish - It will have to be BBC Radio Wales for the game (totally unbiased commentary :D )

Video the match then I can watch later (if we win)

[Geobloke]

Ok - I could be flexible and do Sat PM but not till around 2ish - It will have to be BBC Radio Wales for the game (totally unbiased commentary :D )

Video the match then I can watch later (if we win)


Oh yeah totally unbiased!!!! :rolleyes:

[BigJim]

Sleepers are ace cos they are pressure treated and will last longer!

!

AFAIK, If it is peat then that will presreve any timber that is deep enough in it for there to be no air, so untreted logs could be just as good.

[DavejDavies]

AFAIK, If it is peat then that will presreve any timber that is deep enough in it for there to be no air, so untreted logs could be just as good.

Good point, don't know where i saw it (Time Team/ Ray Mears or similar) but i am sure bark needs to be removed from logs to give them a longer life? Bark decays easier then gets into the wood - or something??

Might make no difference with the peat?

Need a historic tree expert :D

Dendrochronologist or something - not the right term but Tony Robinson's favourite word :D :D

Be interesting to see if there is any sign of original timbers or reeds...

[jjsaul]

always room for a tea lady (JJ if he comes!!!).


ya cheeky ******

you're the tesco's regular :D

[Paul Humphreys]

Hi,

I have just spoken to Davis Jones from the Highways DEPT. He seamed ok. His plan was to go up and have a look later today, walking the lane. He did say that if it was in a dangerous state then he would look at putting a temporary TRO on it. Until there was a working plan to repair it. But he did say the problem with repairing it would be that it goes thro a SSSI. He said they did start doing some work on it a couple of years ago and the CCW started to take them to court as they had not applied to do the work in the right way.

David did say he would call me Monday to let me know what going on.

Paul

[DavejDavies]

Hi,

I have just spoken to Davis Jones from the Highways DEPT. He seamed ok. His plan was to go up and have a look later today, walking the lane. He did say that if it was in a dangerous state then he would look at putting a temporary TRO on it. Until there was a working plan to repair it. But he did say the problem with repairing it would be that it goes thro a SSSI. He said they did start doing some work on it a couple of years ago and the CCW started to take them to court as they had not applied to do the work in the right way.

David did say he would call me Monday to let me know what going on.

Paul

Checked the web and the whole lane does indeed go through a SSSI :(

Based on this is there any point doing anything until there is some feed back?

Can't see CCW (Countryside Commission for Wales) being too keen to do anything to get the lane open to traffic ... shame that emergency works to fill the hole aren't allowed - temp TRO still leaves the hole as a potential risk to other users of the lane...

[Geobloke]

Checked the web and the whole lane does indeed go through a SSSI :(

Based on this is there any point doing anything until there is some feed back?

Can't see CCW (Countryside Commission for Wales) being too keen to do anything to get the lane open to traffic ... shame that emergency works to fill the hole aren't allowed - temp TRO still leaves the hole as a potential risk to other users of the lane...

Yup agree completely fella!

[DavejDavies]

Yup agree completely fella!

Might still go for a look Saturday assuming the lanes not so bad as to be irresponible to drive - stop before the hole - if its TRO'ed might never open again?

[Geobloke]

Might still go for a look Saturday assuming the lanes not so bad as to be irresponible to drive - stop before the hole - if its TRO'ed might never open again?

Yup true! AFAIK the rest of the lane is fine fella!

[Paul Humphreys]

I have not spoken to dave Jones again, but the problem with the SSSI is the fact there is Newts living there. I speak to someone at the Wrexham LAF meeting today about this matter. Its not his area, but he did say even that there are news there it could still be repaired as long as they do not live to close to the track. I will pass this onto Dave Jones the next times I speek to him.

But as I have said thees no point doing anything as yet. Not till me know more. But I did tell Dave Jones that we "have" a team of volunteers readey to do the job.

Paul

[Geobloke]

I have not spoken to dave Jones again, but the problem with the SSSI is the fact there is Newts living there. I speak to someone at the Wrexham LAF meeting today about this matter. Its not his area, but he did say even that there are news there it could still be repaired as long as they do not live to close to the track. I will pass this onto Dave Jones the next times I speek to him.

But as I have said thees no point doing anything as yet. Not till me know more. But I did tell Dave Jones that we "have" a team of volunteers readey to do the job.

Paul

Yup well thats the important thing, if and when permission is given then the work can be carried out. Until then we just have to sit back on our heels and hope no-one has an accident!

[DavejDavies]

Trouble is before CCW give the OK for anything they may want an Environmental Impact Asessment (fluffy bunny survey) to determine if any Newts will be affected by the works - the SSSI seems to cover a huge area - wonder if its all due to the Newts?

Commissioning of any Newt survey is likley to take time and cost the council £££'s

Wonder if anyone in Bangor Uni wants a newt survey project :D

Great that there appears to be plenty of support here for doing something, I am sure back at the start of this thread someone said the farmer was getting feed up of people using his track to get on to the A5 as this lane was blocked further down?

Maybe a temporary TRO over the winter would give it a chance to recover and allow repairs to be made?

[Hoodoo]

Remember the Wayfarer runs through a SSSI and Wrexham Council and the CCW worked together to repair it. So it can be done.
Regards,

[Mogwyth]

Not sure if she'll be able to help but I do have a contact in CCW, I'll try and have a word with her over the weekend.

[Paul Humphreys]

Not sure if she'll be able to help but I do have a contact in CCW, I'll try and have a word with her over the weekend.

All the help the better.

Paul

[BYWAY]

Has anyone got an email address for the ROW office? I am going to email them, but on memory map it shows as a RUPP but on the latest map I have theres an under lying white meaning a UCR. Depending on what it is, then its who dose the work.

Paul

It is not possible to see from the OS map if it is likely to be a UCR if it is a RUPP. As a RUPP is a RoW, OS have a duty to show it, ORPA (usually UUCRs) are optional info, and are never shown if a RoW (DM). Being shown as a 'white' has no indication of any public rights or not.

If a Dual, ie UUCR & RUPP, it would often be highways, but they may have even less interest than RoW, and they will be unlikely to repair it for MPV use :-(

Worse, As a RUPP, it will probably be lost after NERC.

HTH

[Paul Humphreys]

Ok I have had this back today.

Dear Mr Humphreys,

I refer to our previous e-mails regarding the above.

I confirm that the area has been inspected, and arrangements will be made to carry out repair works in partnership with Snowdonia National Park, who have an agreement with the Countryside Council For Wales for carrying out works within SSSI.

Many thanks for bringing this matter to our attention.

Regards

Elwyn Williams
Peiriannydd Rhanbarthol/Divisional Engineer
Adran Priffyrdd/Highways Department
Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol CONWY County Borough Council
E-Bost/E-Mail: elwyn1.williams@conwy.gov.uk (elwyn1.williams@conwy.gov.uk)




Paul

[DavejDavies]

Sounds like a result - well done Paul :D

[Stephen]

wonder what the time scale for repairs will be now

[Paul Humphreys]

I have sent an email asking just that (time scale). I will let you know if and when I get an answer.

Paul.

[Mogwyth]

Snowdonia National Park, who have an agreement with the Countryside Council For Wales for carrying out works within SSSI.



Beaten to it, I have just come back from my CCW friend's house, as I couldn't get her over the weekend (BT problems) to post this same info. But to add she said they can be a bit slow sometimes, depends on budgets and track usage.

[series 3]

well done paul :)

just hope after landrover internationals write up of the lane , that it doesnt get unusally heavy traffic :(

[Paul Humphreys]

I have not seen the LRO write up, I stoped buying it as theres to many ads. I will have to pop into WH Smiths and have a read.

Paul

[Newsreader]

wonder what the time scale for repairs will be now
3 government agencies + a SSSI = a very very very long time ... :D

[Paul Humphreys]

I have had this back

Dear Sir,

I have not got a time scale for repair, however would anticipate the are being repaired in the very near future subject to consent from Countryside Council for Wales.

I am grateful for your offer to assist, however we/Snowdonia National Park will have to adhere to strict guidelines as this area is classed as a SSSI and a cSac of European importance.

Regards

Elwyn Williams
Peiriannydd Rhanbarthol/Divisional Engineer
Adran Priffyrdd/Highways Department
Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol CONWY County Borough Council
E-Bost/E-Mail: elwyn1.williams@conwy.gov.uk (elwyn1.williams@conwy.gov.uk)


I will keep in contact with them. If work is not done within 6 weeks I will ask why not. In the mean time I will email Snowdon National Park and ask if they use volunteers. I will not say why to start, just to see what they say.

Paul

[DavejDavies]

I will keep in contact with them. If work is not done within 6 weeks I will ask why not. In the mean time I will email Snowdon National Park and ask if they use volunteers. I will not say why to start, just to see what they say.


Good luck with the Park - I am sure their web site says there are no greenlanes etc within Snowdonia...

This lane alone shows thats not correct....don't appear to be keen on 4x4s

[DavejDavies]

Good luck with the Park - I am sure their web site says there are no greenlanes etc within Snowdonia...

This lane alone shows thats not correct....don't appear to be keen on 4x4s

I was wrong, memory getting the better of me :(

Actually says: -
http://www.eryri-npa.gov.uk/page/screen.php?nav1=extras&nav2=1&nav3=1&nav4=1&nav5=1&level=1&lang=eng

Are there any ‘off-road’ locations in Snowdonia?
No. The aims of the Park are:
Caring for Snowdonia’s environment and encouraging its responsible use. Retaining Snowdonia’s distinctiveness and identity.
Delivering a quality leisure experience.

[Paul Humphreys]

Well I have sent an email to them, see what they send back.

Paul

[DavejDavies]

Well I have sent an email to them, see what they send back.

Paul

Have you heard anything recently Paul?

[Paul Humphreys]

I have not heard anything, I will send an email.

Paul

[DavejDavies]

I have not heard anything, I will send an email.

Paul

Cheers Paul

Just thinking, with Dave Rogers doing his Mega Green Lane day out in Snowdonia does he know about the problem with this lane?

Get the impression its now too bad to even winch through (even for Dave with his bonnet up :) )

[Geobloke]

Cheers Paul

Just thinking, with Dave Rogers doing his Mega Green Lane day out in Snowdonia does he know about the problem with this lane?

Get the impression its now too bad to even winch through (even for Dave with his bonnet up :) )

Do not! Repeat, DO NOT attempt to go through that hole! This is what happened the last time someone tried it! Thats a 12000lb winch and it struggled to pull just one vehicle through!! The report I got was that by the time it was too late the peat was up to his wings. Not worth it and he shouldn't have done it...

[DavejDavies]

Do not! Repeat, DO NOT attempt to go through that hole! This is what happened the last time someone tried it! Thats a 12000lb winch and it struggled to pull just one vehicle through!! The report I got was that by the time it was too late the peat was up to his wings. Not worth it and he shouldn't have done it...

Don't worry fella we're all sensible here - I won't try something that bad on a private site let alone a highway. Was planning to drop Dave R an email so his route could avoid but Paul could have already mentioned it ?

[Geobloke]

Don't worry fella we're all sensible here - I won't try something that bad on a private site let alone a highway. Was planning to drop Dave R an email so his route could avoid but Paul could have already mentioned it ?

Yeah I know just a friendly warning mate. Just isn't worth it!

[jjsaul]

Is that winch cracked where i think it is :eek:

[Widget]

Is that bunched rope from winching off-centre?

[110def]

Hi we are up in NW after easter could someone tell me the map ref to avoid this lane cheers

[floyd fan]

Hi we are up in NW after easter could someone tell me the map ref to avoid this lane cheers

Look on the first page of the thread, there is a thumbnail of a map showing the area. Where on Merseyside are you?

[Paul Humphreys]

I will do an email tonight, not had time today. Sorry.

I was picking up my new toy!!:D :D :D

I will post a pic of it later in the Public disscusion area.

Paul

[DavejDavies]

Yeah I know just a friendly warning mate. Just isn't worth it!

No danger of me doing any winching unless I am attached to the back of Eva :D

[Paul Humphreys]

I will have a winch for sale soon!!

Paul

[DavejDavies]

I will have a winch for sale soon!!

Paul

The beauty of hydraulics :)

Need tyres first - or do I :rolleyes: :D

The RRC going then?

[110def]

Hi we are on the 'other side of the water' to you in St Helens.

[Paul Humphreys]

The beauty of hydraulics :)

Need tyres first - or do I :rolleyes: :D

The RRC going then?

Yes the RRc is going, so lots of bits going soon. The winch bumper will not fit yours. The tyres off of the 110 will, but theres not a lot of tread on 2, 1 is like new and the other is ok, not looked at the spear yet. But the spare on the RRc is the same and like new. I will let you know when I have has a sort out. They are all 7.50x16s.

Paul

[floyd fan]

Hi we are on the 'other side of the water' to you in St Helens.
Im from Huyton originaly and lived in Rainhill for a few years (Mum and dad still do) so I know St Helens quite well.

[GezC]

Guy Was your mate able to get parts to fix The winch???

[Geobloke]

Guy Was your mate able to get parts to fix The winch???

Hmmm not sure how he did it in the end but he got a new winch I think. Those bars are such a bad design! Is amazing how many winches and brands use that setup, guess thats why people change to webbing or poly-cable... Just got to be careful and have a spotter if you don't!

[DavejDavies]

Hmmm not sure how he did it in the end but he got a new winch I think. Those bars are such a bad design! Is amazing how many winches and brands use that setup, guess thats why people change to webbing or poly-cable... Just got to be careful and have a spotter if you don't!

Dave Morgan broke the surround to his winch Sunday on Angelsey (the purple RRC) - cable just bunched up and snapped it:(

Think it was just the bridge carrying the soleniod so not fatal but bad news anyway - poor design and, as Geo says, spotter is needed and spotter needs to watch the winch, not easy if he has to do other things at the same time :rolleyes:

[Geobloke]

Dave Morgan broke the surround to his winch Sunday on Angelsey (the purple RRC) - cable just bunched up and snapped it:(

Think it was just the bridge carrying the soleniod so not fatal but bad news anyway - poor design and, as Geo says, spotter is needed and spotter needs to watch the winch, not easy if he has to do other things at the same time :rolleyes:

Gez joked about sticking a mirror on the bonnet so he can see the winch from the drivers seat and in all honesty that doesn't sound like a bad idea!!!

[DavejDavies]

Gez joked about sticking a mirror on the bonnet so he can see the winch from the drivers seat and in all honesty that doesn't sound like a bad idea!!!

LOL

Good idea, either that or some sort of CCTV/web cam :D :D

[Widget]

LOL

Good idea, either that or some sort of CCTV/web cam :D :D

Bertie Bowyer sells one of these!! :rolleyes: http://pattilandfarm.com/kernel.php?t=7&sitename=dborc&f[picture]=img-1698.jpg&pageid=winch-monitor.html

[floyd fan]

You could make your own quite cheaply by combining....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Flip-Down-8-TFT-LCD-Color-Monitor-Screen-SWIVEL_W0QQitemZ9704808660QQcategoryZ32826QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem

With one of these...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Colour-Wireless-Spy-Camera-Hidden-Nanny-Cam-Spycam-CCTV_W0QQitemZ9707036060QQcategoryZ60839QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem


(http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Flip-Down-8-TFT-LCD-Color-Monitor-Screen-SWIVEL_W0QQitemZ9704808660QQcategoryZ32826QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem)

[GezC]

Bertie Bowyer sells one of these!! :rolleyes: http://pattilandfarm.com/kernel.php?t=7&sitename=dborc&f[picture]=img-1698.jpg&pageid=winch-monitor.html

this is the one i meant Guy:D :D bit pricey ..I didnt know about the range rovers winch..unlucky.. lesson for us all..think i need to buy another motor to put my old capstan on it would be perfect for the site :)

[DavejDavies]

this is the one i meant Guy:D :D bit pricey ..I didnt know about the range rovers winch..unlucky.. lesson for us all..think i need to buy another motor to put my old capstan on it would be perfect for the site :)

Nice solutions but as you say a bit pricey - mirror sounds nice and cheap but i don't know how efective it would be :rolleyes: :D